, and once the cities get to be a certain density and there's enough commerce, enough population, then in the early part of the 19th century, they get going, and they really take off in 1830s. >> so that's when it's fair to say for the first time that journalism is a business? >> oh, yes. it's clear by then, yeah. >> now, we, as much as people make fun of us for this, think of ourselves as a professional school, and so i have to ask -- >> more power to you. >> when did the notion of journalist as a professional, whatever that means, come on the scene? >> right, right. well, that is still contested terrain in the sense that -- >> you and i both remember going into journalism, guys in the news room who had not gone to college who were upset that the college kids were going into journalism. >> that's right. [laughter] yes, and you still hear that today once in awhile, you know, if you find the right kind of a perp, you can get a ballroom stool argument going over the necessity of journalism's instruction, but, you know, ncht, that apprentice model that you and i came across when we